- What if you accept Jesus as Savior but die before you are baptized?
This one seems to have a direct example from scripture- namely the thief on the cross who talked with Jesus. Jesus clearly told him that 'You will be with me today in paradise’ and yet, the thief was never baptized. I would say the crux of the issue is not baptism but belief (or being called =) I suppose you could view that conversation as a public confession of sorts, however.
Other examples include when numerous people try to put Jesus to the test by asking him “what must I do to obtain eternal life?” Jesus responds with two commandments- Love the Lord your God with all that you are, and love neighbors as you already love/(take care of) yourself. On these two hang the law and the prophets (all of the other commands issue forth from these primary principles.) So I think the issue there was love. Baptism was not specified as a necessity of eternal life in those cases.
Not to say it isn’t important- there is something powerful and wonderful in the public expression of faith and in the act of baptism. Jesus himself was baptized, and it was a pretty big deal when it happened!
-If God and Jesus are the same, why is Jesus a necessity to reach heaven?
Probably because Love requires a giving or a sacrifice- and justice demands payment, to put it simply. I’m not sure if this question is asking more about the nature of the trinity, or about the law of God’s righteousness (which he have all violated to a heinous degree and deserve death for.)
In any case, we broke the law, and in order to be brought back into rightness, there needed to be a reckoning, a payment of sorts in order that the punishment of the law might be fulfilled. God is just, he cannot be unjust- sin must be paid for or answered to. God is so unbelievably holy; the merest speck of sin is an affront to his ultimate worthiness, and deserving of eternal wrath. It is not the magnitude of sin committed that merits this punishment, but the magnitude of the glory of the being who was insulted/sinned against.
So, against the weight of the infinite affront of our sin, God could only use the infinite Love of His Son as payment.
- What if you accept Jesus as Savior but die before you are baptized?
What if baptized is simply the filling of the Holy Spirit, upon acceptance of the free gift of God?? Since John said, I baptize with water but one will come and baptize with the Spirit (My paraphrase)!! Thus, giving your life over to Christ (i.e. 'belief' in what He did on the cross and then in the reserection), you then are baptized by the Spirit and thus 'Saved' from eternal seperation from God!!
My daughter came to me with this exact question a few weeks ago because she was reading in John 3 when Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)
She kind of caught me off guard with that verse because I didn't know how to "explain away" the water part. I just told her that if you have the ability to be baptized in water, it probably needs to be done out of obedience, but if it isn't possible (as in the thief on the cross), then I am sure it would not be required.
I agreee with Jeff on the fact that physical baptism is an analogy or picture of what the spirit does, it is like how the tabernacle was an annalogy of heaven/christ, and sacrifices were analogies of Christ's attonement for our sins.Being baptized is an outward sign of an inward act and is good to do as a public profession of christ and how he has renewed your life, but it is not essential for salvation.
as to jesus and god being the same I think it is necessary to clarify the terms..Jesus IS God, but Jesus IS NOT the father. yes they are three in one, but they are not the same entity.It is just part of the mystery of God. the fact that he can be three in one. So that being said, Jesus is necessary for salvation because salvation must involve all members of the trinity in order for God to be consistent with himself. and as stated above, christ died in order that God may remain consistent with his character: being just AND merciful. If God forgave away our sins without the attonement of christ he would be unjust, thus christ is absolutely necessary to our salvation, but the role of the Father and Spirit are equally important.
I think John 3:5 might be a reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27 "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses... And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you..."
From the context of the passage in John, I don't think he is talking about Baptism here, but rather rebirth. The water here is a reference to the ritual cleansing process, a washing away of the old being, and a putting on of the new.
Note: This is just me, but I think Jesus might also be poetically explaining rebirth- as the words for 'Spirit' and 'Wind' are the same in Hebrew and Greek- so Jesus phrase in John 3:5 might also be stated as "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the wind.".. just a thought, I'm not entirely sure on this because I wasn't around in the 1st century, so I don't have the same mindset or understanding about how Wind/Spirit is understood, but I think Jesus had a powerful way with words- and he was being somewhat cryptic from Nicodemus' point of view :)
Thanks Scotsman. I really don't know the answer. . I am just pondering myself.
I wonder why Jesus felt it necessary to be baptized in water? He didn't seem to follow things that were 'religious traditions' or 'man made rules' as the religious leaders at that time did. He many times even denounced their 'traditions'. However, He did get baptized in water. Hmmmmm. . . .
- What if you accept Jesus as Savior but die before you are baptized?
ReplyDeleteThis one seems to have a direct example from scripture- namely the thief on the cross who talked with Jesus.
Jesus clearly told him that 'You will be with me today in paradise’ and yet, the thief was never baptized. I would say the crux of the issue is not baptism but belief (or being called =)
I suppose you could view that conversation as a public confession of sorts, however.
Other examples include when numerous people try to put Jesus to the test by asking him “what must I do to obtain eternal life?” Jesus responds with two commandments- Love the Lord your God with all that you are, and love neighbors as you already love/(take care of) yourself. On these two hang the law and the prophets (all of the other commands issue forth from these primary principles.)
So I think the issue there was love. Baptism was not specified as a necessity of eternal life in those cases.
Not to say it isn’t important- there is something powerful and wonderful in the public expression of faith and in the act of baptism. Jesus himself was baptized, and it was a pretty big deal when it happened!
-If God and Jesus are the same, why is Jesus a necessity to reach heaven?
Probably because Love requires a giving or a sacrifice- and justice demands payment, to put it simply. I’m not sure if this question is asking more about the nature of the trinity, or about the law of God’s righteousness (which he have all violated to a heinous degree and deserve death for.)
In any case, we broke the law, and in order to be brought back into rightness, there needed to be a reckoning, a payment of sorts in order that the punishment of the law might be fulfilled. God is just, he cannot be unjust- sin must be paid for or answered to. God is so unbelievably holy; the merest speck of sin is an affront to his ultimate worthiness, and deserving of eternal wrath.
It is not the magnitude of sin committed that merits this punishment, but the magnitude of the glory of the being who was insulted/sinned against.
So, against the weight of the infinite affront of our sin, God could only use the infinite Love of His Son as payment.
- What if you accept Jesus as Savior but die before you are baptized?
ReplyDeleteWhat if baptized is simply the filling of the Holy Spirit, upon acceptance of the free gift of God?? Since John said, I baptize with water but one will come and baptize with the Spirit (My paraphrase)!! Thus, giving your life over to Christ (i.e. 'belief' in what He did on the cross and then in the reserection), you then are baptized by the Spirit and thus 'Saved' from eternal seperation from God!!
Indeed! I think you are correct in that baptism might be best expressed as a spiritual action rather than a physical one.
ReplyDeleteMy daughter came to me with this exact question a few weeks ago because she was reading in John 3 when Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)
ReplyDeleteShe kind of caught me off guard with that verse because I didn't know how to "explain away" the water part. I just told her that if you have the ability to be baptized in water, it probably needs to be done out of obedience, but if it isn't possible (as in the thief on the cross), then I am sure it would not be required.
What are your thoughts on this verse?
I agreee with Jeff on the fact that physical baptism is an analogy or picture of what the spirit does, it is like how the tabernacle was an annalogy of heaven/christ, and sacrifices were analogies of Christ's attonement for our sins.Being baptized is an outward sign of an inward act and is good to do as a public profession of christ and how he has renewed your life, but it is not essential for salvation.
ReplyDeleteas to jesus and god being the same I think it is necessary to clarify the terms..Jesus IS God, but Jesus IS NOT the father. yes they are three in one, but they are not the same entity.It is just part of the mystery of God. the fact that he can be three in one. So that being said, Jesus is necessary for salvation because salvation must involve all members of the trinity in order for God to be consistent with himself. and as stated above, christ died in order that God may remain consistent with his character: being just AND merciful. If God forgave away our sins without the attonement of christ he would be unjust, thus christ is absolutely necessary to our salvation, but the role of the Father and Spirit are equally important.
Re: Marci
ReplyDeleteI think John 3:5 might be a reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27
"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses... And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you..."
From the context of the passage in John, I don't think he is talking about Baptism here, but rather rebirth. The water here is a reference to the ritual cleansing process, a washing away of the old being, and a putting on of the new.
Note: This is just me, but I think Jesus might also be poetically explaining rebirth- as the words for 'Spirit' and 'Wind' are the same in Hebrew and Greek- so Jesus phrase in John 3:5 might also be stated as "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the wind.".. just a thought, I'm not entirely sure on this because I wasn't around in the 1st century, so I don't have the same mindset or understanding about how Wind/Spirit is understood, but I think Jesus had a powerful way with words- and he was being somewhat cryptic from Nicodemus' point of view :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThanks Scotsman. I really don't know the answer. . I am just pondering myself.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Jesus felt it necessary to be baptized in water? He didn't seem to follow things that were 'religious traditions' or 'man made rules' as the religious leaders at that time did. He many times even denounced their 'traditions'. However, He did get baptized in water. Hmmmmm. . . .